tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post5345203492274397209..comments2024-01-23T16:53:02.428+00:00Comments on Mark Thompson: My view on the Lisbon Treaty, David Cameron and the EUMark Thompsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00744387583593537268noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-83667417681213989132009-11-08T12:02:34.724+00:002009-11-08T12:02:34.724+00:00Maybe a little late, but here's why EU treatie...Maybe a little late, but here's why EU treaties are so complex and not comparable to the US Constitution:<br /><br />1. They are treaties not a constitution. As I understand it, the original EU constitution would have been a lot simpler (though still not as simple as the US one). It would make more sense to compare EU treaties to something like NAFTA.<br /><br />2. In terms of the Lisbon treaty, it is a treaty that amends past treaties, and as such is going to be filled with legalese anyway.<br /><br />3. The Lisbon treaty and the US constitution have very different histories behind them. The US Constitution was written to unite 13 former colonies with common histories into one union. EU treaties on the other hand, aren't there to form a new country (despite what the Europhobes would have us believe), but to reform and improve on an institution, and the treaties have to be agreed by 27 different countries, with different histories, cultures and legal systems. Hopefully you can see the problem now. You could compare it to something like the health care bill just passed in the US House of Representatives (which is something stupid like nearly 2000 pages long!), although even that doesn't work because all 50 states are united as one country, and so there's not the fundamental differences as there is for the EU treaties.Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-22218983031531764442009-11-04T14:17:10.467+00:002009-11-04T14:17:10.467+00:00Why is it so complicated? I'm tempted to say ...Why is it so complicated? I'm tempted to say it's because the complexity so effectively conceals from the electorate what's really going on.<br /><br />Open Europe the other day were highlighting an almost unnoticed clause by which, at the request of a member state, anyone can be tried for anything that is a crime in that state, in any other state. I had to rub my eyes over this, and I'm not 100% certain; but I think it means, for example, that if I deny the Holocaust in Britain, where it isn't a crime, and the German government got to hear about it (perhaps my views were viewable on a blog in Germany) they would be able to demand I be put on trial in Britain for something that is no crime under English law, and punished with whatever penalty German law prescribed. <br /><br />This is quite extraordinary, and completely alien to any known democratic principle; yet there has been zero public debate, or even awareness, of it, because it's buried aware somewhere in a boring treaty no-one reads.Heresiarchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03515376670031027455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-14739177752783745862009-11-04T11:16:43.165+00:002009-11-04T11:16:43.165+00:00"So the other parties haven't kept their ..."So the other parties haven't kept their promises and this means that the Tories don't need to keep their promises either!"<br /><br />It's not the Tories breaking their promises -- can't you see the playing field has changed now? What use would a retrospective referendum be? In a word: none.<br /><br />There may well be other Eurosceptic policies the Tories can look at implementing -- but they are right to move on from the referendum, because the referendum wouldn't be any use at all. What right would we have to tell the 26 other EU member states how the EU should work for them, given that we agreed to ratification at the time along with the rest of them?David Webernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-30749042713511314942009-11-03T23:21:45.748+00:002009-11-03T23:21:45.748+00:00"I also think that the fact the accounts have..."I also think that the fact the accounts have not been signed off is very bad and gives the impression of corruption even if this isn't warranted. I really don't understand why this has not been addressed more fully."<br /><br />It's because no-one has any incentive to do anything about it. For the books to be signed off the Commission would need more staff to go around snooping on Member States and checking how Member States spend EU cash... and no Member State wants to give the Commission money to come snooping on them. So hence no progress.<br /><br />The money the Commission itself spends directly on projects is generally OK, it's the stuff that goes via Member States (and disasters like the rural payments agency) that's the problem.Jon Worthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10657831243573498703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-61409111631331143152009-11-03T22:44:59.077+00:002009-11-03T22:44:59.077+00:00So the other parties haven't kept their promis...So the other parties haven't kept their promises and this means that the Tories don't need to keep their promises either!<br />If enough people feel as angry as I do and vote for UKIP, it'll probably mean another Labour government. Hardly important if we were merely going to replace one lot of liars with another.Brian E.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-32188724793106110282009-11-03T20:22:27.529+00:002009-11-03T20:22:27.529+00:00@Kalvis -- A bit late, isn't it?@Kalvis -- A bit late, isn't it?David Weberhttp://thedailysoapbox.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-26633270778378707062009-11-03T17:51:05.364+00:002009-11-03T17:51:05.364+00:00Petition to: have a referendum on the Lisbon Treat...Petition to: have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.<br /><br />http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Lisbon-ref/Kalvis Jansonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13379157181034658841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-41975055247451697312009-11-03T17:42:37.154+00:002009-11-03T17:42:37.154+00:00Perhaps it has something to do with the continenta...Perhaps it has something to do with the continental tradition of contempt for what Nietzsche called "offensive clarity" - he was referring to John Stuart Mill's prose style at the time..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-89415297618916998332009-11-03T17:37:29.954+00:002009-11-03T17:37:29.954+00:00Incidentally, I disagree that closed-list is bette...Incidentally, I disagree that closed-list is better than FPTP. They're both equally dreadful -- Closed list has no level of individual accountability or direct representation, FPTP has no moderation of outcomes or mechanism for transferable voting.David Weberhttp://thedailysoapbox.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-56735978022252638352009-11-03T17:29:08.160+00:002009-11-03T17:29:08.160+00:00"I don't like the way the commissioners a..."I don't like the way the commissioners are all appointed and it is often seen as a reward or sop for domestic politicians of the various member states. I think it would be much better if it was more democratically accountable."<br /><br />This sums up in a nutshell one of the biggest cons about the whole European debate at the moment.<br /><br />The Tory front bench likes to play to the Eurosceptics at the moment, but what you see, and I see, and everyone should see if the debate were carried out on a more mature level, is that the EU could easily become more democratically accountable through a simple reform on the *national level*.<br /><br />Make Commissioners subject to election. There's no reason why the government can't do it, it would merely require the simple arrangement of an election, which the government could be bound by law to make their appointment. The only reason why no party considers this is that it would constitute such a transfer of power away from government.David Weberhttp://thedailysoapbox.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3881762807913180318.post-79428019518735926252009-11-03T17:28:51.478+00:002009-11-03T17:28:51.478+00:00Unfortunately, that is not how these things are do...<em>Unfortunately, that is not how these things are done in Europe (perhaps more learned people than me could explain why in the comments)</em><br /><br />NB : I am not more learned.<br /><br />I expect that to a certain extent this arises as a result of it all being 'designed by committee', which is well known to be a disastrous methodology.<br /><br />You can only make this worse by applying decision by consensus.<br /><br />Of course, that could be what they <em>want</em> you to think. Technocrats are crafty like that. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com